Re: RIP Shores of Hazeron. Post by Kot » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:14 pm #24299. I literally just started playing again yesterday.

Taking me calling you out on backpedalling and suddenly claiming you're not serious as saying 'Inb4 stupid polack is trying to wriggle out of his previous stupidity lol.' 'Upset at what? USA is not my country, and it's not my fault you intend to prove that i'm stupid.' I don't really have to prove what you prove with every post you make.' Because i'm the guy who doesn't like to be ruled by another idiot with money.' Get on a boat and live in the ocean by yourself. The ultimate anarchy.

Tell me how it works.' I literally said IN THIS VERY TOPIC that torturing or murdering Germans for what Hitler did is not much different from torturing and killing so called terrorists or criminals. Stop changing my words to fit what you want to say.' Uh, no, it's very different. Confirmed terrorists intend to murder, maim, or otherwise harm innocents, and are more than prepared to die to do so. Torturing or murdering Germans for something they didn't actually do or plan to do since they're not Hitler is really not even in the same ballpark.

It's not even the same sport. If you can't comprehend that, you're clearly very far gone. Maccus wrote:'I literally said IN THIS VERY TOPIC that torturing or murdering Germans for what Hitler did is not much different from torturing and killing so called terrorists or criminals. Stop changing my words to fit what you want to say.' Uh, no, it's very different.

Confirmed terrorists intend to murder, maim, or otherwise harm innocents, and are more than prepared to die to do so. Torturing or murdering Germans for something they didn't actually do or plan to do since they're not Hitler is really not even in the same ballpark. It's not even the same sport. If you can't comprehend that, you're clearly very far gone.There is no justifying killing. Well, maybe if he was going at you with gun, i can understand, nobody wants to die and you don't have time for other options.

But when you're holding a terrorist in prison, torturing him for information he will proably not give, you are literally proving him that his leaders were right portraying you as monsters. The man proably never heard a good argument against what he does, being more than prepared to die for 'good cause' he thinks he is fighting for. Hey, you might even capture a bigger fish which is actually aware, but then you're still acting against what you wanted to defend.Also notice 'so called terrorist'. Bunch of people that land in those prisons have only minor connections with terrorists or none at all. Which you proceed to kill because they confess to things they have no idea about due to torture. But hey, that's apparently a small price to pay for oil greater good of civilized people, huh?Ok, the thing Germans was a bad example (if any at all) but let's just keep going. There is no justifying killing.Come on.

Come on son.Holding information he will not giveYou greatly underestimate how much someone will want to talk with power tools around their testicles.You are literally proving his leaders right for portraying you as monstersThey're going to think that whether or not you execute the guy or send him home with a gift basket and a sympathy letter. The only difference is one of those ensures there's one less terrorist.Still thinking this is all over oilI think this is the last I'm going to respond to you.

You're such an idiot you have me and Violaceus agreeing on something which would normally be nigh impossible. Everyone out of THE WAYokay idgaf about metrics and imperials actuly yeah metric is pretty cool and all we should probably usa it.but when u insult the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ur pretty much a fag just kill yourself, especially if you live in some country like poland holy shit u fucking jew. Most smart ppl here use the metric system anyways for anything that matters aside from nasa apparently w/e.

Anyways don't insult usa thats what im trying to say here and you cant talk about how whites are a minority here if u live anywhere in europe thats apart from like iceland so just get out.btfoEDIT: idk whats going on but if your anarchist or w/e you are pretty retarded and stupid too so just go eat a huge weiner. In fact ur the most retarded of all.

Umm, you can't. If it isn't called level progression, it will be called something else. Regardless, all methods still do the same thing, allow you to slowly become better. That's the nature of games and of RPGs. If you hate it so much, then maybe you need to find another hobby.There is only one thing that I do suggest, however.

Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.For example.

The World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do.

So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make.

Why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.There is a major different in the construct of most level based games.

Maybe you should find another hobby if all you seek is cheap quest to push you to level cap with no roleplaying at all. Not really but just showing you how you sound.The biggest different between levels and most other games is that you usually feed content into levels and out level content or stuck on a strict linear path. Or levels are just markers that mean nothing in the first place.Progression can happen without you going through the 1-whatever and going through content carefully arranged for you to do that.Wth are you talking about? Did you even read what I said? I somehow don't think you did. 'Progression' is the heart and soul of RPGs. Watching our character grow is what keeps most of us playing.

Epic Music:Kyleran: 'Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for whatit offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experiencebecause it lacks a few features you prefer.' John Henry Newman: 'A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault.' FreddyNoNose: 'A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense.' 'Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten.'

LacedOpium: 'So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested inthe game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are youplaying an MMORPG?' What long level grind. Adobe flash player mac.

Games suffer from max level in 2 weeks and the content is exhausted by the transient player base only to complain about them failing.True that but perhaps the OP is talking about returning us to BETTER gaming of old but losing the blatant level grind for some better options?IMO the 'LEVEL' idea is among several ideas that just have me shaking my head,like who thought of these non sensical ideas in the first place because they make zero sense.Like where in the history of man or legend or myths have we seen ANY mention of one's level?Rank or stature yes but NEVER a level number. I think the best answer I have come up with (I've asked myself this question many times) is to provide the same breadth of content that traditional MMOs offer as elder game as the actual game progression; eliminate levels and progress more horizontally.So many traditional MMOs spend huge amounts of time and money developing assets that solely exist to fuel leveling, which many players find tedious to begin with. Leveling zones and dungeons in MMOs of almost any age past brand new are basically barren. The story content of these games is consumed once at best by most players.I remember when I started playing Ultima Online many years ago and I had no concept initially of 'maxxing' my character before I set about achieving my goals in game. I simply did the things I thought were fun and progressed as I did. We need a system much more like that.Horizontal progression could mean starting from a more rounded character and becoming more specialized (not necessarily more powerful) or nearly the opposite, starting with a very limited character and learning more and more skills to become more rounded.

In Archeage, you could level every skill tree in the game on a single character by respeccing, FF XIV does something similar.I think traditional questing and/or mob grinding (for experience) can be eliminated altogether. Allow raiding, dungeon content, and pvp from the beginning of the game essentially. Make the progression of these activities tied more to game knowledge, teamwork, and smart play.

This is similar in concept to how a very new player can contribute effectively to PvP in EVE even though they have very limited skill points. Make a great game world and don't waste it on content that will be consumed and abandoned while the elder game players simply sit in a capital city. Find a better way to encourage players to interact and grow the community aspects of the game without creating a sense that you have to do certain things (like join a large dominant guild) to be relevant. Emphasize player crafting and trading in the game's economy; this has been a fairly strong theme in the MMOs I played where I felt community was important. Since you aren't wasting 30 zones of your game's space on quest content, emphasize exploring more. If you have to have a time consuming progression aspect to give players a constant purpose then try something like dungeon grinding for currency or rare drops; at least that can be a compelling social experience and a way for players to fraternize.Didn't mean to ramble.

I'm too sleepy to post more coherently at the moment. Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the issue over the years.On several points, especially the raiding, dungeons, pvp, socialization, and crafting. Way ahead of you. Focus on these aspects from moment one in the game, are a huge priority in my own designs.Unable to speak on leveling, but I can agree that gated content is pretty sucky and needs to go the way of the dinosaur. Questing also needs a huge revamp in my opinion.Time will tell. Developers need to come up with other ways to challenge playersaside from long level grinds and similar time sinks if they want a successfulMMORPG these days.There is so much more that needs considered for this. It requires reinventing the concept of MMORPG progression entirely.

That isn't an easy thing to do. If it can be done the right way I think it could be just the thing to rekindle interest in the MMORPG genre.For the record, I only read and am replying at this time to your post I have not read any other replies.Simply put, what you are talking about actually exists, there have been games like you refer to. But the majority of people here are of a brainwashed generation that have a different view and opinion and think that it cannot be made or exist. Simply put, the wheel has already been invented and does not need to be reinvented. But it has been hidden and forgotten. Let me elaborate.Lets consider a recent success, Minecraft, took everyone by surprise, but if you think about it, Minecraft approached very much what you want.There is no artificially guided progression, levels skills etc in Minecraft, there is only the Player skill.Yet there can be a host of difference between the newbie and the vertaran.The veteran is armed with experience and knowledge that the newbie doe snto have.Role play? You only need to look at the by=products Minecraft has generated, kids are reading Minecraft stories in books now days some of them never even actually played the game yet they read the books.

It all started out of a spontaneous open ended environment.Some may argue that 'RPG' requires Develloper INtervention, requires for strictly defined stories artificial challenges and constructs such as well defined Quest from poiint A to Z.Yet, at the core, Role play, does not need artificial stories and quests either, because People can Role Play just by interacting together. Lets go on a grand quest to find Gold, and voila, there you have a sponaneously Generate Quest, with whatever adventure and interaction we encounter on the way. A richer quest like this you cannot have? And the beauty of it? It can be different every time it is played by people. And it can also tech different lessons to players. Which in itself provides the foundation upopn which furtehr interaction is possible.Like for instance, gathering in the local Tavern/Cantina/ Social Hub and exchange all these ifferent experiences and lessons with others within the virtual world.

continue from first replyTherefore in conclusion the Spirit of game sthat you seek can and do exist. The main point here is that you do NOT have to mimic reality, you can implement it it is just another approach of making games whichthe industry has not taken advantage of and moved in another direction instead.The rest is mroe about Artificial Intelligence and you would be surprised to find that some of what you said is more than possible abut is not not usually implemented because the players would be demolishged by the AI. Then some other aspects are not possible (yet) under an MMO design frame and difficult even under solo games, because Computers are basically dump, do not reason like you and I, do not respond on emotions do not consider all these things, we are only beggining to make small baby steps in terms of AI in that regard.For example, you mention:quote'Can they not have a boss AI that is programmed to anticipate player attack patterns and change its own strategy to compensate like a computer chess game does?' /quoteA computer game of chess does not anticipate anything. What it does is calculates all possible outcomes based on your move and teh date it has been provided according to the rules of the Chess game itself. It calculates within the boundaries of teh possibilities of Chess.

And even then, It takes hours to make a move in times this is why the matches between Chess Masters and Compouters have been mainly with Supercomputers.Eventually the supercomputers won at Chess versus Humans, but that doe snot make Computer smarter Just capable of remembering a large number of possibilities and fast to calulate outcomes out of these possibilities.But to anticipate Human Behavior? It requires another Human.Another obstacle is player psychology. Players do not like to Lose, so eventualy no matter how hard you will make an AI opponets peopel will document how to do it, how to win and publish it in a web site for other people who do not like to lose to read and win too.The root cause of the fact that gameplay results in us players googling the solution is at the same tiome a combination of factors. The Player, the Technology and most importantly, the Design Approach.That solution has been there all allong since the beginning, its just that the powers that be managed to render it almost, forgotten.

And what we really need is reintroduce it and share it and propagate it to all new designers and players. So that it spreads in tehgameing industry once more.Cheers! continue from first replyTherefore in conclusion the Spirit of game sthat you seek can and do exist. The main point here is that you do NOT have to mimic reality, you can implement it it is just another approach of making games whichthe industry has not taken advantage of and moved in another direction instead.The rest is mroe about Artificial Intelligence and you would be surprised to find that some of what you said is more than possible abut is not not usually implemented because the players would be demolishged by the AI. Then some other aspects are not possible (yet) under an MMO design frame and difficult even under solo games, because Computers are basically dump, do not reason like you and I, do not respond on emotions do not consider all these things, we are only beggining to make small baby steps in terms of AI in that regard.For example, you mention:quote'Can they not have a boss AI that is programmed to anticipate player attack patterns and change its own strategy to compensate like a computer chess game does?' /quoteA computer game of chess does not anticipate anything. What it does is calculates all possible outcomes based on your move and teh date it has been provided according to the rules of the Chess game itself.

It calculates within the boundaries of teh possibilities of Chess. And even then, It takes hours to make a move in times this is why the matches between Chess Masters and Compouters have been mainly with Supercomputers.Eventually the supercomputers won at Chess versus Humans, but that doe snot make Computer smarter Just capable of remembering a large number of possibilities and fast to calulate outcomes out of these possibilities.But to anticipate Human Behavior?

It requires another Human.Another obstacle is player psychology. Players do not like to Lose, so eventualy no matter how hard you will make an AI opponets peopel will document how to do it, how to win and publish it in a web site for other people who do not like to lose to read and win too.The root cause of the fact that gameplay results in us players googling the solution is at the same tiome a combination of factors. The Player, the Technology and most importantly, the Design Approach.That solution has been there all allong since the beginning, its just that the powers that be managed to render it almost, forgotten. And what we really need is reintroduce it and share it and propagate it to all new designers and players. So that it spreads in tehgameing industry once more.Cheers!sorry all grinds, ive played UO for 18 years now, and it was/is always has been a grind.Skill Grind. To get 70, 80, 80, 100 Gm 110.

For the bonusesTrade skill Grind. To raise skill for bonuses to craft and combat. Some of the heaviest grinds known to the genre, try getting Poisoning to 110Karma Grind. For Titles.the the gear grind. They all there.Minecraft, Creativerse, Tug. These builders are all grind also. You need Wood to get Stone, To get Iron, to Get Gold to Emerald to get Diamond etc.

You are grinding tiers(levels) of resources. Altho i will incluse Minecraft but the title of the OP does specify MMORPG which Minecraft isnt.Dual Universe look s to be more of the same Resource level grind.Shores of Hazeron the same. Its still a level grind. Resource and crafting but still a level grind. Sorry but there is no avoiding it. I dont think 'level grind' is the issue.

I think enough playable content evenly distrubuted among the levels then nobody would care about gaining levels other than those type A personalities with unresolved historyPeople will care about leveling as along as end game is big. End game will be big as long as MMORPG are long term. Levels will be an obstacles to end game and rushed through.I believe in renewable content, player content and procedural content.

Levelless small vertical progression. That way its always something going on new and content is not out leveled or funneled through. You then put less pressure on developer content. I do not think the level grind needs to be replaced.

Certainly some games can try new things but gaining levels to open up new avenues of content and power works very well in pve content. The issue caused by a level system is mostly between players. This can affect both pve and pvp due to power discrepancy.Solution: keep the process minimal but also remove the differences between players. Levels cause gating of content but games require participation in content to succeed (many of us know the issues created by level bloat from games like Wow in it's earlier versions). Levels can be required as a gating mechanism for only pve however and not pvp.What one could simply gain is heroic levels that open up heroic potential that only helps against how heroic the content you face. The more you venture and take on more powerful content you gain levels that allow you to gain more benefits from better gear (which would be far less effective on players with lower levels). This would remove the need for many bop/boe mecanics and level gating to gear making the game fare more realistic. Sure you could put on your powerful guild mate's armor but you'd still suck.

And now have to pay costly repairs and perhaps lose (if that sort of game) the armor.These powerful players could gain the means to take on incredible content others have not earned the skill to face but return to lower level content and pvp against players without stomping them instantly. You'd be more powerful but only gain a sliver of the vertical benefits when not facing heroic content. Plenty of rewards tied to crafting, social skills, cosmetics, pets and endless other mechanics can be gained from lower level areas so returning is always beneficial and often required.It has been proven time and again that rewards outside of power creep gear works. New skins and better gear customization along with endless other options can serve as the carrot on the stick to keep players moving forward yet effectively not leaving old content and player participation behind.In a system like this you'd still be in awe of the gear of veteran players. But if you dueled one or partied with them in lower level zones you would still be competitive, share xp and not completely trivialize the content.What ever system is used the keys to solving the issues of stat bloat and pvp fairness is the maintain realism between players but also still offer high fantasy fun and epic rewards.

We are seeing more and more of this enter mmorpgs but is saddens me that it has taken 20 years for developers to wake the fuck up and realize participation, fairness and challenge can all go hand in hand. In my opinion it's more about lazy development. People obviously like progression but they don't like their content and movement throughout the game world being blatantly gated by it. There needs to be way more creative ways to offer players progression satisfaction.The most fun I've had in MMORPGs is when I get to play around with builds, weapon variation, and class combinations so I can improve and customize my play to my personal liking. All the numbers 1-100 did was prohibit me from doing this.

Developers need to stop insulting the intelligence of the player base and understand we are aware.How about not being so blatantly obvious about the Lvl 1-100 thing for starters. In my opinion it's more about lazy development. People obviously like progression but they don't like their content and movement throughout the game world being blatantly gated by it. There needs to be way more creative ways to offer players progression satisfaction.The most fun I've had in MMORPGs is when I get to play around with builds, weapon variation, and class combinations so I can improve and customize my play to my personal liking. All the numbers 1-100 did was prohibit me from doing this.

Developers need to stop insulting the intelligence of the player base and understand we are aware.How about not being so blatantly obvious about the Lvl 1-100 thing for starters.Lol. Epic Music:Kyleran: 'Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for whatit offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experiencebecause it lacks a few features you prefer.' John Henry Newman: 'A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault.'

FreddyNoNose: 'A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense.' 'Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten.'

LacedOpium: 'So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested inthe game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are youplaying an MMORPG?' Sorry all grinds, ive played UO for 18 years now, and it was/is always has been a grind.Skill Grind. To get 70, 80, 80, 100 Gm 110. For the bonusesTrade skill Grind.

To raise skill for bonuses to craft and combat. Some of the heaviest grinds known to the genre, try getting Poisoning to 110Karma Grind. For Titles.the the gear grind. They all there.Minecraft, Creativerse, Tug.

These builders are all grind also. You need Wood to get Stone, To get Iron, to Get Gold to Emerald to get Diamond etc. You are grinding tiers(levels) of resources. Altho i will incluse Minecraft but the title of the OP does specify MMORPG which Minecraft isnt.Dual Universe look s to be more of the same Resource level grind.Shores of Hazeron the same. Its still a level grind.

Resource and crafting but still a level grind. Sorry but there is no avoiding it.Well that is a very uninspired way of putting it that lacks insight.I think you mistake Life for a grind. Is life a Grinf?

You have to grow up year after year all those borthdays.wow what a grind? Oh and eat every day sleep, for god's sake go to school the work more than half you life, do shoping, your laundry, taking care of your car, paying your bills, renovating your house.good thing that you do not live in the African Savanah, because hey you may even have to go out and hunt for food, gather berries, wood to lit the fire.or build your own Hut!!You think all those things are a Grind?You play UO for 18 years, have you been leveling skills for 18 years? Because if yes then you are doing something wrong. It took a couple of months to Master most Combat Skills, and 6-8 for Crafting skills, I played for 5 years, my 'Character Grind' was over in the first, and for the next 4 I never had to grind anymore but I was having so much fun.How?

By interacting with otehr players, by comming together and setting up the Councils of Virtue by helping build communities Vilages cities, by hhelping defend them against other players, fighting grand glorious wars of conquest. By building monuments organizing evets going in to weddings celebrating the good times and also being there during bad times dealing with loss evolving as not only a character in game, a moody pixel, but also as a player.Players build the Britannian War Council, to bring peace upon the realm, players setup the Regency to provide stability following the departure of the King, players designed and put to motion the Territorial War Project. None of that was in the game's design but the game istelf, like Real Life, provided the tools that players could use according to their own creativity. And without wanting to boast, I was there creating all these with many others, so you will excuse me if I find most of the following MMO's in the past 2 decades, poor, very poor and shallow in comparison.Have you done anything creative of the sort in your 18 tyears or have you simply been raising yous kills and perfecting the numbers of your chartacter?

Because if you have just done that and accumulating wealth and material things then you missed 70% or more of the fun of such a game.Or, maybe you simply havent played other games beuond UO then which is another issue all together. But out there this turned out a very different way. Look at World of Warcraft, so many years it is comming up with another Expansion, we have articles of brave 'ex' players comming back some of them are trying to justify their own actions by making hype threads.but what does it really have to offer? More levels more Grind.more caps to reach.even new classes so you can grind from the beginning all over again with anew look. More of the same Gameplay, in new colors and different sounds but still repetitive. So people can go do it all first and post the web sites on how to beat the new raid bosses etc.all over again.

They will get bored and quit all over again too soon enough, and rince and repeat next expansion LOL!! But hey at least it pays the salaries of people making all the new colors and sounds yes?And preciselly what the OP wants to eliminate.